June 14, 2009
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Abortion
I’m back from a week of Kid’s Camp. -recovering.
A worried woman went to her Doctor and said: Doctor,
I have a serious problem and desperately need your help!
My baby is not even 1 yr. old and I’m pregnant again. I
don’t want kids so close together. So the doctor said:
‘OK and what do you want me to do?’ She said: ‘I want
you to end my pregnancy, and I’m counting on your help
with this.’ The doctor thought for a little, and after
some silence he said to the lady: ‘I think I have a
better solution for your problem. It’s less dangerous
for you too.’ She smiled, thinking that the doctor was
going to accept her request. Then he continued: ‘You
see, in order for you not to have to take care of 2
babies at the same time, let’s kill the one in your
arms. This way, you could rest some before the other one
is born. If we’re going to kill one of them, it doesn’t
matter which one it is. There would be no risk for your
body if you chose the one in your arms. The lady was
horrified and said: “No doctor! How terrible! It’s a
crime to kill a child! ‘I agree’, the doctor replied.
‘But you seemed to be ok with it, so I thought maybethat was the best solution. The doctor smiled. realizing
that he had made his point. He convinced the mom that
there is no difference in killing a child that’s already
been born and one that’s still in the womb. The crime is
the same!
Comments (109)
Good post!
Awesome story!
This should go over well in the xanga community at large.
…But doctors are only supposed to abort within the first trimester. Or first few weeks, anyways.
So technically it isn’t a fetus/human yet.
just a fertilized egg. So it isn’t really the same crime..
Just my opinion though.
right, abortion is a crime
There is a difference. A real big one.
i’m not sure where i stand on abortion…but i feel in extreme cases where a baby might risk a mother’s health…or the woman was raped…or forced into sex it should be allowed…i’m not sure how i feel about people who completely don’t want a pregnancy for whatever reason…finances…not ready…too young….I guess everyone deserves a shot at life…but what if that life would be destined to be a poor one? What about a drug addicted parent or prostitute? Yeah there’s foster care and adoption, but what if that ends up being a poor experience for the child. I’ll never know til I’m in the situation. One of the most complex…controversial issues in my opinion.
i love this
@xWaltzAlyssax -
But they don’t. Many of them abort well past 20 weeks. It’s way beyond just a fertilized egg even at 8 weeks, when it has fingernails and toenails already. You might want to explore fetal development in detail.
Great post – good point.
I liked this
@musicmom60 -
Well, if they stick to their regulations and only abort in the first trimester, I don’t really see a problem with it.
@Lilyofdavalley84 -
I agree, I wrote a paper on this. If they’re going to be born into horrible homes, with parents who didn’t even want them…a lot of foster children/children up for adoption spend their entire LIVES jumping from home to home and are unhappy.
this makes me more confused
@xWaltzAlyssax - I agree. I’d rather not have to get rid of fetuses, but people are stupid, and it would suck to grow up in that situation.
I don’t understand how any woman who has carried a child could ever consider abortion. Great post!!!!
@xWaltzAlyssax -
What regulations? Where? Look in any phone book. Most places advertise abortion up to 24 weeks. I think the general public is under the wrong impression that abortion is only legal in the US up to 12 weeks, but that’s just not true. There was a place in Wichita Kansas that did them up until full term, until just recently.
@Losertastic -
Exactly my point.
@musicmom60 -
Well in that case, it’s wrong. All I’m saying is that if they only did it in the first trimester there is nothing wrong.
I like this alot!! I think that if the women was dumb enough to have sex without a condom that it should be her fault that she is pregnant, but if she is raped that would be different because the child would just be another bad memory of what had happened to her. Otherwise my opinion in abortion is that women shouldn’t be aloud to have an abortion unless she is raped.
Adoption is a great way to go, if you really can’t take care of that baby for ANY reason. Hundreds of thousands of parents are waiting years to adopt an infant. Adoption makes a family – and saves lives. I am a living example of surviving an abortion attempt and going on to be adopted into a lovely family – it works – it’s worth it, and my birth mother will tell you it was the best choice she could have made. I am so grateful to her for fighting for my life and running from abortion, and giving me life and a home and a loving family.
Ugh, more abortion stuff.
This may make me sound like a bitch, but I’m not sure you (being a man) could fully appreciate or understand how important it is for the option of abortion to be legal.
@xWaltzAlyssax -
this is what a fetus can look like by the end of the first trimester It is way more than an egg – it has arms, hands, feet, fingernails, eyes.
He could have just said she should put it up for adoption or something. I’m pro-life, too, but that answer just seemed like a stuck-up, jackass thing to say to a distraught woman.
@xWaltzAlyssax -
The first trimester is up to 12 weeks. The heart is beating at 4-5 weeks.
@xWaltzAlyssax -
Sorry, also meant to give a link. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
@josiebunny -
Plenty of women agree with him. That argument doesn’t fly.
Awesome, I think abortion is wrong and I would never have one, I just don’t see how anyone can.
EPIC WIN on abortion!
I am against it and this little story just proves how terrible abortion can be.
no real doctors would do that because it’s unprofessional to insist their personal beliefs on patients
@scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel -
so what is it before the 4-5 weeks?
Really makes you think, doesn’t it?
@scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel -
err i’m not sure why my comment didn’t post sorry >.<
if the heart isn’t beating, what would you call it between those first few weeks? if it has no beating heart, legs, arms, eyes, hands, etc. what is it?
my own opinion is, it’s no ones business and it’s not your decision to choose for the woman when you don’t even know her. i mean, i understand how people can question what’s the difference between a living child and a baby in the womb…but those women should have the choice. however, i do agree that abortion should be made legal after the trimester. i just don’t understand how making abortion legal affects people in a negative way.
Great post.
If that scenario ever really did play out in real life, that would cause a moral dilemma; however, there are plenty of other real life situations that are horribly difficult and much more complicated.
Although I HATE abortion debates that get started from posts like this, this is an incredible post. Great point.
@josiebunny - Not understand as a man? I would disagree with you on that. I’ve suffered for nearly 26 years now because of an abortion my wife had when we were young kids. Hardly a day goes by that I don’t think of my son/daughter and wonder what if I didn’t terminate his/her life. I have had nightmares of what the inside of that abortion clinic looked like. I was involved in a murder.
@Lilyofdavalley84 -
Do you know that if you did a study on the history of eugenics and planned parenthood, you would quickly see a connection of what you just said in your first comment here to the exact thing eugenics pushers wanted you to think. The people (who were all wealthy and racist whites) who wanted the “fittest” (much like hitler) decided that poor people and minorities should not have babies, because they would produce more of the same, thus risking the generational wealth and health of their future offspring for years if not centuries. Birth control was then birthed (no pun) and pushed freely into the poor communities. Then came abortion that is pushed heavily and funded freely now. Consequently, millions of babies who would’ve been classified then as a burden, have been aborted, mostly by underprivileged women, and women of minority status. And the jargon that they wanted women to buy into- have. Do you have any idea how many children of African American heritage have been aborted?
(seriously)
The idea of eugenics was to create a better race of people. It has ties all the way to Hitler and prior. Look these things up and don’t be alarmed. But get informed, about what the agenda was and is, and start telling people the truth. No one teaches these things to girls in school, with good reason. If they can keep us dumb and in the dark, then they have a sure fire shot at winning the prize they fought for. PS–no one reply to this with hate until you have done your homework!
Awesome post! See for me it would be as if I was killing a part of me. Well, this baby is half of me. I would NEVER considerate. As for adoption I don’t think I could do that either. I would keep the baby. I think if you aren’t ready for a baby, keep your legs closed. Just sayin’.
@josiebunny -
What is it called when a man can “choose” to exercise his rights pertaining to his own body without regard for another human being/life?
That women must be pretty simple minded to let something like that change her mind.
@xWaltzAlyssax - Actually, they are now allowed to abort through the entire pregnancy even the last trimester…that was what Obama did his first day in office.
Wow Randy, I am so sorry that you went through an abortion with your spouse…. My mom had a child at16 years old, they wanted her to abort but she refused…. they forced her to put her for Adoption…I have now met my beautiful sister, whom I honestly verbally missed all the way until I knew she existed…
Oh and …according to the doctors, my mom was too sick to have me and I was supposidly going to have all kinds of medical problems and they urged and urged her to “terminate” she refused… so I get to have life today…
So I feel really strongly about this issue and I loved that story! In WI there is a clinic that gives free ultrasounds ….they have found that 90% of women considering abortion decline after seeing their child by ultrasound.
What you went through was tough. I am so glad you are using it as a testimony today! Thanks for being brave enough to post this!
really good post.
I do not believe in abortion at all. I do not feel the circumstances under which a child is concieved, be it rape, drunkeness, accident or whatever gives anyone grounds to kill an innocent child. They/we are all here for a reason & a purpose and I do not think it is anyones place to play God & decide if a baby’s life is worth sparing.
This being said, I have an amazing and beautiful 5 month old girl who was concieved very early in my relationdhip with my now husband and we are expecting our second child in December. I wouldn’t do anything to harm either of them, whether in my arms or growing in my body.
Beautiful post.
@TheTheologiansCafe - Haha. Very true.
So, posting a strawman propaganda story is supposed to validate the Pro-life stance? What if one of those babies was gonna be Hitler? No Holocaust baby! Seriously though, the logic in this story is definitely weak.
@xWaltzAlyssax - Agreed.
@stalkdebbie - According to law? It isn’t. Fail.
@quicksandbuddy - More like: Pro-Life propaganda and strawman argumentation. I mean really, what doctor (other than sitcom ones) would EVER say such things to a patient? Even the more “fringe” types. I’m with you on this. Except I’m Pro-choice
@josiebunny - Right. Because child-birth doesn’t affect men in ANY way. At least not the good ones who’ve stayed. We couldn’t possibly understand how important it is. :annoyed:
@scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel - Majority rules. That and the original statement was too big a generalisation. Mostly illogical.
he got his point across but what if she had gotten another dr?
It’s not the baby’s fault a woman has sex before she is “ready” to have children.
Great post.
@josiebunny - I, being a mother of four, can fully appreciate and understand how important it is that babies are allowed to live. It is hard for me to imagine any woman who has borne a child, who has watched her baby in an ultrasound, who has seen the tiny features of preemies and how hard they fight to live, that a woman could ever desire to squash that little human being like a bug or cut it up like a piece of chicken. It is something no woman could do unless they completely squash all human tenderness first. I know a woman who worked in an abortion clinic who is now undergoing extensive therapy. She was completely unable to love or trust any other person because of the atrocities she has been part of. She says she was hardly human, and is just now learning to feel again.
Abortion, frankly, is nothing but selfishness. It happens because a woman is too busy or too concerned about herself, to nurture a growing baby for a few months. I know many couples who would be delighted to adopt a newborn–many of them wait for years for the privilege. If a woman has the misfortune to carry an unwanted child, the least she can do is to allow someone else the joy of having a wanted child.
And for those who rave about needing abortion because of all the children languishing in orphanages…get real. Newborns don’t. Not in the US.
I’m sorry–didn’t mean to come unglued on you, josie, but your little comment just hit me. Most of the people who promote abortion simply haven’t loved their babies. I don’t know if you have children that you love or not, but if so, how can you deny that joy to an adoptive family? And I won’t even begin on the horrible physical and emotional scars that abortions leave. Even if that baby wasn’t a person, I wouldn’t wish an abortion on my worst enemy!
Great post, btw!
@quicksandbuddy - Maybe so, but sometimes the truth hurts. Would it be better to gloss over it and encourage someone to do something they will be eternally sorry for?
@mz_d0rkabl3 - Obviously, the story is fictional, but that doesn’t change the truth of it.
@Randy7777 - I am so sorry, but thankful that you have repented. Thank you for sharing your experience and the wisdom you have gained from it.
@MangoWOW - Or perhaps she just has a heart that knows right and wrong and doesn’t deny it?
@Only_God_is_Awesome - Beautiful testimony!
@Schristian - You can call it a strawman propaganda if it makes you feel better. At least this one is based on truth and not supposition–that fetus is definitely alive and a potential child, no matter where you stand.
Pro-abortion people put up straw men all the time, like how many of these babies will presumably have a horrible life bouncing from place to place if they are allowed to live. That is pure supposition, and not even supported by the facts. Newborns are VERY adoptable–many people are waiting for them.
I don’t believe that if you abort the baby within the first few weeks it is developed enough to be considered alive.
This “argument” (assuming you wanna call it that) is nothing but an appeal to pity.
Comparing a first-trimester abortion with the killing of an already-born human is…how shall I say this…retarded.
@homefire - Why didn’t you take 2 or even 4 babies and adopted them? Why not put your money where your mouth is? But no, you went ahead and popped out 4 kids of your own. If it’s so easy and they’re so available, why not go for it?
Pfft.
@homefire - Actually, scientifically the embryo is not a human life-form, only so much as a cell is a human lifeform. In that case: You’d better not scratch yourself, sneeze, cough, fart, burp, eat, or live. Because the body is shedding/killing cells all the time; making you a mass murderer every second.
And trying to make an argument over the “possible”, isn’t valid enough. The future is uncertain, and to claim that, that uncertainty is reason to not alter a life, is another strawman.
No, this entry is not fact. But thank you for playing the “Fallacy Game”.
I’m not pro-Abortion, I’m Pro-Choice. There is a difference. Please don’t speak if you’re not educated enough to know this.
@xWaltzAlyssax -
Agreed.
Amen.
ummm…. no it is not the same. bringing a child into the world where the parent is unprepared or unwilling to give it a good life is iresponsible.
irresponsible*
@Only_God_is_Awesome -
Well alright, if there is a heartbeat, it should be wrong, Otherwise if a woman wants an abortion, it shouldn’t upset anyone else, because it isn’t their life, or their situation. If it were, then they could have a say in it.. I was against Obama in the first place.
@kiwi_cheese -
@relieefff -
Agreed.
@SerenaDante -
Thanks, I’m glad some people can see where I’m coming from.
Great story. Everyone’s munching up this anecdotal bullshit like it’s chocolate.
To most here, color and form replaces substance.
@smaaall - Great point. – Thanks
This is a pretty absurd story. The doctor doesn’t prove anything, he just asserts his view that there’s no difference. Obviously, that conclusion needs some argumentation – and there is none given whatsoever. If the woman is convinced by that, she’s a moron.
Sounds like a pretty incompetent doctor.
Unfortunately, until people learn to use modern contraceptives unlike the woman in our story, abortion is something that anyone who has worked in an abortion clinic knows is a necessary thing.
Was the woman having one just for convenience? Would the child grow up in poverty or in hunger? Was she a drug addict?
Just because some people grow up this way does not make it right, and just because it is necessary does not make abortion right. Everyone really knows what they should do, but no one wants to do what it takes to make these thing not a necessity. Oof, that was poorly phrased.
I don’t know if this is a troll or not since it’s featured.
But I think abortion is justified within the first month if there is veritable reason for it.
@Only_God_is_Awesome -
My daughter was supposed to be born with either Down’s Syndrome or Spina Bifida and I was asked to terminate at 20 weeks gestation. She was born PERFECTLY healthy. I feel strongly on this issue as well =]
@In_Reason_I_Trust -
Adoption really isn’t THAT easy, depending on where you are adopting from. I was adopted privately through just my birth mothers consent and it took thousands of dollars for my parents and so many weeks in court to have it legalized. Then when I was LEGALLY their child, my biological Grandparents tried to have my father arrested for kidnapping. There’s ALOT that goes on with adoption that alot of people don’t know about.
This just irks me. This is your opinion, though, so whatever. It’s about choice…not about right or wrong. As far as anyone’s concerned, it’s part of the mother at that point in time. After the first trimester, I think it’s wrong because the baby becomes a gender, starts to move, etc…
@MangoWOW -
I agree that she is…and the doctor definitely shouldn’t have posed his opinion as he did.
@homefire -
I’m not even going to go into much detail about how I had an abortion after seeing the “baby” who looked like a bean on an ultrasound…or the fact that I now have a daughter whom I love very much, and that you see me as heartless and cold for it. I’m going to address the adoption issue. I have a friend and her husband who have been trying for years to adopt. No matter what agency they try to go through, it’s too expensive. The cheapest one they found was $25,000. The job where we work offers adoption assistance. They will reimburse people who adopt for part of the cost. The problem is, you have to front the money first. No one should have to take out a loan to get a kid…they’re not property or something you can trade in if it’s something that no longer works for you. So while most people would love to adopt children, most people can’t afford it. And then we have the celebrities running out to other countries to get kids, what do you say to that? Sure, there’s always adoption, and yes, everyone wants a newborn. But adoptions sometimes take months and babies don’t stay newborns forever…
It’s interesting, for some reason when I was reading this and trying to make complete sense of it, I went all metaphorical when I reached the line “let’s kill the one in your arms.” (And the following line too. “This way, you could rest some before the other one is born.”) Not all individuals who seek abortions are reckless teenagers who just happened to not use any birth control due to their own carelessness; some of them are married women who had an “oops” moment with their husband, or are married women who used every barrier method known to man and still got pregnant, and anything and everything in between. Some of these women who seek abortions are concerned about the life of their existing children (as opposed to putting their own life, wants, desires first). From a place of poverty (in particular), a mother who already has children and is already struggling to make ends meet might actually feel that she would be “killing the child in her arms” by having one more kid. If it was her understanding that having a second child would stretch her resources (money as well as time and loving care) so thin that she couldn’t adequately provide for both, and yet chose to have the second child anyway, knowing full well that the quality of life for the first child (or however many children she has) would go down, is she really doing anyone that great a service? Is she doing something positive for society? For her children?
@lilmizzie27 - Exactly. It’s not the hassle-free fairy tale that pro-lifers are making it out to be. Thank you for sharing that.
Um, no.
@josiebunny - Uhm, did you look at the comments above you? Who are they made by? Exactly. I understand your point, but being a man (or woman for that matter) has nothing to do with this post.
@homefire -
Perhaps. But in this case she was swayed WAY too easily. Seems more like a simple minded fool to me.
@scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel -
Not saying there aren’t, but I’m sure there are women that think the same thing I do. Everyone perceives things differently.
@Randy7777 -
I’m sorry. What I said obviously stirred something in a lot of others, too.
I still think it’s important for abortion to be legal, but maybe I’ll have to rethink how I feel about men having a say?
Welcome back! Amen…there is no difference…a child is a child.
@xWaltzAlyssax - Does another person have the right to kill you if they believe there is overwhelming potential for you to have an unhappy life? Just a hunch, but I bet you would want to be consulted first before your life was terminated on their whim.
I agree, some children are born into bad homes and that is a tragedy, but by making your argument at that point you seem to be acknowledging the same reality that this blog post illustrates. It is not your right to decide that another person should die because they may live an unhappy life. It is still murder if you kill a person because you think they might be unhappy and a rational jury would convict you if you did.
The real question in the abortion debate should be whether or not the unborn person developing in a woman deserve the protections garranteed by the Constitution, the right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
(Note: Happiness can never be garranteed, but the right to life can easily be defended and should be.)
You’re right that they’re both living things. I wrote a post about abortion recently in terms of global warming and stuff like that. It seems like people are terrified of “aborting” the “life” of the earth, but refuse to believe a child in the womb is alive. Sorry, but scientifically speaking, it IS alive. People can have different stances on whether or not they agree with abortion as a whole, but to argue it’s not alive is kind of silly, I think.
Pro-life, for life.
If you’re not responsible enough to use birth control correctly, you’re clearly not competent enough to bring a child into this world. Why put a child through that? Abortion is there for a reason.
Most of this pro-life/pro-choice arguement fails to address another big issue. Rape.
What if a woman (or really young girl) is raped and becomes pregnant?
What a disgusting world it would be to force a woman to carry a product of something as awful as rape. What would her choices be in a world where abortion is illegal? Keep the child and be reminded every time you look at them of the traumatic experience you survived? Or put yourself and the child through an emotional strain and give it up for adoption?
How would you like to hear that? “I’m sorry little Tommy, but your mommy didn’t want you because she was raped and got pregnant with you, so she gave you up for adoption.” Sick.
Horrible.
It’s so easy for pro-choice people to judge and spat at abortion, but unless you’ve been in the situation, you lack all knowledge of what you would actually do. All you have is your judgement, which is obviously poor.
@xWaltzAlyssax -
That makes the adoption system wrong, not the fact that such children are alive. The system is set up to keep children from being adopted — it is literally set up against children finding parents. For instance, many social workers are instructed to match same-race children with like-race parents; however, the vast majority of children seeking adoptions are black and Hispanic, whereas most prospective parents are white.
There is also the fact that many children in the foster care system are not available for adoption because the parents have not lost or relinquished their parental rights.
We certainly need to make it easier for children to be adopted, and enforce harsher punishments for parents who fail to care for their children; however, the solution is not to simply kill children.
Abortion is such a difficult topic to talk about. There’s the big debate on whether the fetus should be considered a child, a human, alive etc. and that just complicates everything. Then religion gets involved, when it shouldn’t be, and that just makes it even worse. I try to just simplify it and rely on my instinctive desire, which is freedom. I’m pro-choice, but I like this post and I think the story is good one for all the read and consider.
@lilmizzie27 - I agree with you. When my friends mom was pregnant with her sister, they said there was something wrong with her. They wanted her to have an abortion, she didn’t. Angela has autism, mental retardation, bipolar disorder, cp, and seizure disorders but they said they wouldn’t trade her for the world. Who are we to just give away gods gifts to us, even if they aren’t “normal”?
@Stoltz13 -
Okay, but every PERSON. PERSON being the key word is born with those things, However, being that it’s terminated before it’s developed, it isn’t a person!
@In_Reason_I_Trust - Well, since I was able to easily have kids of my own, I never even thought of it. If we were infertile, like several couples I know, you can bet we would have.
@Schristian - Fallacy game is right. You surely don’t honestly believe that a dead skin cell that sloughs off when I scratch is equivalent to an embryo. One naturally grows and develops, and the other naturally dies and is discarded. Get serious. And you’re right that the future is always uncertain. Especially when you’re a fetus whose mama wants to kill you… And one more thing:
>I’m not pro-Abortion, I’m Pro-Choice. There is a difference. Please don’t speak if you’re not educated enough to know this.
I think this is such an interesting point. No one wants to be called pro-abortion. Is it a bad thing to be pro-abortion? If abortion is perfectly okay, then why would being pro-abortion be bad? If you truly see absolutely no moral problem with abortion, why bother with the semantics? Pro-choice is a meaningless term. Just for instance, would you be pro-choice about rape? As in, ”I would never rape anyone, and I would rather no one ever raped, but I think it should be every person’s choice whether or not to rape.” Yeah, that’s ridiculous. But my point is that being pro-choice about it would be the same as if you were pro-rape.
Be pro- whatever you’re fighting for, and have the courage to stand up and say it. “Pro-choice” is a cop-out!
@PoetMcChick - I am so sorry. I’m sure you went through a lot of pain to make that decision. I didn’t say you were cold and heartless–you could also be either be pretty much uninformed or else just not think about it. I imagine the latter is how I would handle something like that.
I agree that adoption requires a ridiculous amount of expense and red tape. We have quite a few friends who have adopted, and it is a huge hassle. It would be wonderful to see that reduced.
@Sweeping__Insensitivity - your logic is…interesting. Death is preferable to emotional strain? I guess I wouldn’t agree. Go here and read her story and think about it. http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/
@kiwi_cheese -
Life, by definition, is cell replication. So I call it life. I guess as far as you not understanding how abortion affects people in a negative way…you have to form your own conscience. No one can form it for you.
@relieefff -
This is obviously based on an extensive study of embryology… right?
Because according to the scientific definition of life — reproduction, metabolism, and self-directed development — the unborn ARE alive from the moment of conception.
@homefire -
It would be great for the price to be reduced. I would still like the background checks to remain in place. The place I went to was great, and they told me everything that was going to be happening. They sent a lady home because when they asked her if it was her decision, her answer was either a no or a very hesitant yes. As soon as we all went into the waiting room she began crying. They made her leave, without performing the abortion. My brain’s defense mechanism makes me not think about things that will upset me. So I don’t. But when I do…I write about it. My story I wrote about a couple posts ago if you’re interested. Good thing my daughter can’t read yet, cuz she’s sitting right here in my arms. I wonder how I’m going to tell her that she’s the child I chose to keep, and I know she’ll wonder why I didn’t want the other one, or why didn’t I abort her too. And I have no idea what I’m going to say.
@GermanWrench - This is obviously based on my opinion. I am allowed to have an opinion. I said, “I believe that..” I did not say it as a fact.
According to my opinion, little lumps of cells (oh no, don’t get annoyed at me now!), are not alive.
I understand your opinion differs, but, sorry to say, you shall not change mine.
@xWaltzAlyssax - So why did you center your original argument around a person’s unhappy existence making the termination of their life justifiable, when now you are saying that there is no person involved?
Moving on, is a person less a person just because they aren’t fully developed? Science tells us that a person is not fully developed until their mid-twenties…how old are you?
@relieefff -
Well, I am of the opinion that France is a planet, that doesn’t mean that that opinion is perfectly in line with objective fact. You can’t just simply explain away a statement that exempts an entire class of individuals from their endowed humanity by saying, “Well, it’s my opinion.” It was Hitler’s opinion that Jews were subhuman, “life unworthy of life,” but it was objective fact that caused the rest of the world to stand up against his regime.
Unless you actually know what you’re talking about, is it really fair to allow a clearly uneducated, borderline ignorant “opinion” about a matter of life or death, to negate even the “possibly” human from their rights? Such matters should be based on objective fact — and the objective facts are that the unborn are, from conception, clearly individualized human beings with all of the biological characteristics of life.
If the law is to be fair and just, it must be based on fact, not opinion — especially not opinion that exists in antithesis to fact.
@relieefff - Cells are not alive????
Now, what you may be saying is that those cells (ie: genetically not the mother’s) are not entitled to the protection of the law…but a cell is certainly alive.
i love this!
This was AWESOME.
@Stoltz13 -
My age really has nothing to do with this, because if a person isn’t developed fully until they’re 20…they still have already been BORN and ALIVE. and have a HEARTBEAT. difference.
@xWaltzAlyssax - Um, slight correction. The embryo’s heart usually begins beating at about 21 days after conception, I believe. So if you want to abort something without a heartbeat, you need to do it before the first three weeks, which is generally about the time you begin to suspect you’re pregnant. Very few babies are deliberately aborted before their heart starts beating. They’re alive, they’re growing, they have a heartbeat. The only difference is that they haven’t yet been born.
@homefire - IF it were death. But it’s not.
@xWaltzAlyssax - If your not being fully development has nothing to do with your right to live, then why did you base your argument around development? I guess now it is dependance and not development that makes the difference between being a person and not being a person?
A premie is underdeveloped and often dependent on machines for survival is still a person. My lungs collapsed soon after I was born, I couldn’t breath without the aid of an incubator and nonstop medical care. It would be insane to argue that I wasn’t completely a person because I couldn’t breath on my own. Same goes if my heart wasn’t fully developed and I was dependant on machines to keep my blood flowing. Like a premie, many babies still in the womb have a chance to survive independent of their mother if given the chance. Heartbeat, born and unborn have nothing to do with the question of where or when personhood begins and ends.
Basically your current argument is that a person is only alive if they aren’t dependent…do you produce and provide your own food and shelter?
A person is a person. Every individual has “one of a kind” fingerprints. The deliberate taking of innocent human life is murder. The offspring should not be punished or murdered for his/her parents sins or anyone elses. Abortion is making the innocent pay for the guilty…. this is wrong. There is a wonderful reward for putting someone smaller and defenseless ahead of your own self interest, comfort, etc. Our whole society is affected by this attitude. There is injustice in this life, but we, as individuals, have the choice to do the right thing, even if it isn’t convenient. Also, there are other options that don’t include taking an innocent life, yet still allow a mom to “not” take responsibility for a little one after birth, but then that has already been mentioned.
This doctor was making an important point to his patient and she will thank him someday or wish she had listened. A person I was close with who was unmarried when she became pregnant gave the baby up for adoption, then legally aborted her second baby. She has had a terrible time with the abortion. As a person with experience in both options: by her own words, adoption was a self sacrificing decision that saved a life and although it was a very difficult decision to make. She was able to heal and has not suffered the pain and mental anguish the abortion has caused her. She also says that speaking out about it has helped her deal with the terrible pain of the legal abortion and gain forgiveness.
Another person I have been close with had an abortion and claimed it didn’t hurt her, however, she has been in mental hospitals numerous times, where she was given treatments to wipe out her memory. At the time of the abortion, she was married and had a small baby when she became pregnant again soon after and made the choice to abort. Many years of torment and lots of money it cost to make her forget whatever it was that made her attempt suicide, run away from her kids and husband. Still married, children grown, but has some real guilt issues still.
Then there was another person I was close to, that was told for her health they needed to abort her baby. She would not agree to a late term legal abortion (26 weeks) so they started labor to deliver the baby so they could treat her. In trying to convince her to abort the baby, they said if he lived, he would most likely be physically handicapped, etc. He is now 19 years old, no defects whatsoever. At the same hospital they could have legally and seemingly justifiably taken her upstairs and taken away that innocent human life, but instead she did the hard thing and he was perfectly formed in every way and not only survived but has been a big blessing.
This is a subject that tears at my heart. Ok, I will shut up for now.
although i can’t imagine a real dr. actually doing this because so many are told to be “impartial” , i agree with the point it makes.
@scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel -
i don’t think you understood what i meant by how it affects people.
the abortions that happened in previous years does not affect people around the country. i certainly do not see how it can. you don’t even know when a specific abortion happened, why it happened, and who the woman is. do you think about the woman who had an abortion every day? do you think about that cell/baby every day? does it affect YOUR life? i don’t think so.
i’m guessing you think abortion is murder. if you don’t, go ahead and correct me. if this is made illegal on the basis that it’s murder then the consequence is jail or a fine or jail for life possibly. you’re going to send a woman who got pregnant and got an abortion to jail because she made a mistake? haven’t you made mistakes? have you always faced those mistakes and never run away? maybe you haven’t, but i’m sure majority of the people in this country have run away from their problems. running way from your problems all the time isn’t good, but it shouldn’t be made illegal.
lets not take a personal attack and tell me i don’t have a conscience. k? thanks.
if i was pregnant and it wasn’t the right time, i don’t know if i could go through with the abortion cause it’ll be my baby. it’s not for you or anyone else to decide what i do. the option of abortion is a big deal, i don’t think it’s ever taken lightly by a woman.
just cause abortion is legal doesn’t mean everyone’s gonna go out have unprotected sex cause they know they can always get an abortion. what’s wrong with leaving the choice for others? if you got pregnant and it wasn’t the right time, then you wouldn’t get an abortion because you don’t believe in it. if another woman got pregnant and it wasn’t the right time and she got an abortion…well then that’s her problem.
@scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel -
mann, sorry for making this so long.
oh, why say that it has a beating heart or legs or arms at ‘x’ amount of weeks. there’s no point of pointing that out if you’re going to call it a life at the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg.
at a certain point the baby can live outside the womb, like a pre-mature baby. but before that point…the baby will die because it is outside the womb and completely dependent on the woman, not because it wasn’t fed or given water, so i believe that it is not a life until after that point.
I pointed that out because someone asked. What you are talking about is viability. A child actually is not viable outside the care of parents (or someone else) until about 10-years-old, depending upon the kid.
I did not tell you that you did not have a conscience. I am pretty close to being offended by the fact that you accuse me of doing so. I said it is up to you to develop your conscience in response to you asking why people think abortion is wrong. That is an act of conscience. Since you obviously cannot discuss something without assuming someone is attacking, this will be my last comment back to you. Have a nice day.
@Stoltz13 -
But you were still already born, and already HAD a heart and lungs.
very well said!
@xWaltzAlyssax - Your argument is irrational, if a functioning heart and lungs is the basis of personhood, then a someone on a ventilator (like I was) or with an artificial heart is less a person according to your logic. You had your first heartbeat a few weeks after you were concieved…
Huge difference. You already know and love those who are already born.
@Sweeping__Insensitivity -
My mother didn’t want me and it honestly didn’t hurt my feelings one bit because she gave me to a GREAT set of parents. I understand not everyone is that lucky and some people do have it thrown in their face that they were unwanted, but for the record that is not ALWAYS the case.
I understand that women who are raped, some that is, don’t want to be reminded daily of the horrible incident they went through every day by their growing bellies, but do you honestly think thats the child’s faults and the unborn should be punished for the reason of which they were created? I don’t know if you have children or not, but my daughter teaches me something new about love every day … I have been raped … I have looked for love in the wrong places, but when I look at her .. it’s an unbelievable amount of joy and love that fills my soul. … Why wouldn’t someone want that?
@Aiyoku_Angel -
Very good point, I agree.